HomeCalendarFAQSearchMemberlistUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 this is very tempting

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
AuthorMessage
Pliio

avatar

Humor : Satire
Posts : 282
Join date : 2011-10-18
Age : 24
Location : Missourah

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:24 pm

Yuzani wrote:
I don't really see what's wrong with being religiously intolerant. Blah blah blah it hurts unity and other similar arguments. Aside from that the pilgrims would never have come here to kill off the natives if there was religious equality in Europe!
Most of the time is the flat-faced ignorance of the intolerance. Also, it's an issue that varies by such a degree that the only real way to look at it is to oppose individuals. But we can't do that.
Basically, a lot of generalizations occur in such a small amount of time- It's not an issue you can really solve.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Riv
Literally the fucking worst
avatar

Posts : 7308
Join date : 2011-10-17
Age : 27

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:31 pm

Pliio wrote:
Yuzani wrote:
I don't really see what's wrong with being religiously intolerant. Blah blah blah it hurts unity and other similar arguments. Aside from that the pilgrims would never have come here to kill off the natives if there was religious equality in Europe!
Most of the time is the flat-faced ignorance of the intolerance. Also, it's an issue that varies by such a degree that the only real way to look at it is to oppose individuals. But we can't do that.
Basically, a lot of generalizations occur in such a small amount of time- It's not an issue you can really solve.

Education. If we fixed our public school system and provided, at the very least, a liberal arts AA, people would be exposed to enough information and differing world views that they would be much less prone to intolerance and generalizations.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://furrygtw.forumotion.com
Pliio

avatar

Humor : Satire
Posts : 282
Join date : 2011-10-18
Age : 24
Location : Missourah

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:34 pm

Riv wrote:
Pliio wrote:
Yuzani wrote:
I don't really see what's wrong with being religiously intolerant. Blah blah blah it hurts unity and other similar arguments. Aside from that the pilgrims would never have come here to kill off the natives if there was religious equality in Europe!
Most of the time is the flat-faced ignorance of the intolerance. Also, it's an issue that varies by such a degree that the only real way to look at it is to oppose individuals. But we can't do that.
Basically, a lot of generalizations occur in such a small amount of time- It's not an issue you can really solve.

Education. If we fixed our public school system and provided, at the very least, a liberal arts AA, people would be exposed to enough information and differing world views that they would be much less prone to intolerance and generalizations.
That doesn't fix the issue of parenting.

Hell, I admit that I'm biased against atheists because most of my family are the biggest fucking dumbasses to ever believe in the lack of a god. And because I have yet to hear one rational argument from any Atheist in my region.

How do we reconcile that with education?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Riv
Literally the fucking worst
avatar

Posts : 7308
Join date : 2011-10-17
Age : 27

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:41 pm

Pliio wrote:
That doesn't fix the issue of parenting.

Hell, I admit that I'm biased against atheists because most of my family are the biggest fucking dumbasses to ever believe in the lack of a god. And because I have yet to hear one rational argument from any Atheist in my region.

How do we reconcile that with education?

I hear that. I'm pretty sure my dad doesn't go to church simply on the grounds that he's too lazy to do so. And for a long time, the only atheists I knew were a couple people at my workplace, and they were morons. But then I made some friends in the physics department at my school, really smart kids, who turned out to be atheists. You've just got to look in the right places.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://furrygtw.forumotion.com
Pliio

avatar

Humor : Satire
Posts : 282
Join date : 2011-10-18
Age : 24
Location : Missourah

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:49 pm

Riv wrote:
Pliio wrote:
That doesn't fix the issue of parenting.

Hell, I admit that I'm biased against atheists because most of my family are the biggest fucking dumbasses to ever believe in the lack of a god. And because I have yet to hear one rational argument from any Atheist in my region.

How do we reconcile that with education?

I hear that. I'm pretty sure my dad doesn't go to church simply on the grounds that he's too lazy to do so. And for a long time, the only atheists I knew were a couple people at my workplace, and they were morons. But then I made some friends in the physics department at my school, really smart kids, who turned out to be atheists. You've just got to look in the right places.
I just don't like the idea of actively opposing religiosity. It just feels... I don't. The same. The same as fundamentalist religions. I know that Atheism isn't a religion (It's a belief system, nonetheless), but some people sure as hell treat it as one.

I mean, if you know that your idea is correct and comfort you, what's the point in opposing other views. I find people from all walks of each faith who are perfectly fine with one another. I have an atheist friend who is the hardest atheist ever but he doesn't religion like it's irrevocably, innately inferior. I'm non-religious, my brother is Buddhist, one friend is Atheist, one is Catholic, one is Pagan.

You know how many religious arguments we've had? 0
We can even debate it and not let it devolve in to the "God is not great/You'll burn in hell/Religion makes you stupid." Bullshit.

It baffles me how others can go on and on in these arguments over something that doesn't even really matter. If you know, you know, and you have to accept that others think and know differently. If you've got a mind more closed than the walls of Zion, you probably shouldn't even be entitled to a religious opinion. You're not smart enough to handle it.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Pliio

avatar

Humor : Satire
Posts : 282
Join date : 2011-10-18
Age : 24
Location : Missourah

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:58 pm

Kinda like... Atheists blowing up when people say that they'll pray for them in a time of need.

I've always heard "Why can't you give me something that'll work, like some money?"

Uhh... because praying for someone is an act of solidarity? Like sending a "get well soon" card or sending best wishes?

It's not a differential calculus equation, it's the easiest damn rationale.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Riv
Literally the fucking worst
avatar

Posts : 7308
Join date : 2011-10-17
Age : 27

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:15 pm

Pliio wrote:

I just don't like the idea of actively opposing religiosity. It just feels... I don't. The same. The same as fundamentalist religions. I know that Atheism isn't a religion (It's a belief system, nonetheless), but some people sure as hell treat it as one.

I mean, if you know that your idea is correct and comfort you, what's the point in opposing other views. I find people from all walks of each faith who are perfectly fine with one another. I have an atheist friend who is the hardest atheist ever but he doesn't religion like it's irrevocably, innately inferior. I'm non-religious, my brother is Buddhist, one friend is Atheist, one is Catholic, one is Pagan.

You know how many religious arguments we've had? 0
We can even debate it and not let it devolve in to the "God is not great/You'll burn in hell/Religion makes you stupid." Bullshit.

It baffles me how others can go on and on in these arguments over something that doesn't even really matter. If you know, you know, and you have to accept that others think and know differently. If you've got a mind more closed than the walls of Zion, you probably shouldn't even be entitled to a religious opinion. You're not smart enough to handle it.

I consider religion to be immoral on the grounds that most people force it upon their children. Whatever they want to do in their own head is their business, but shouldn't their child have their own choice, rather than have their parents' religion foisted upon them?

This is especially important to me, since I was homeschooled, and therefore exposed to a bunch of children, young adults, and parents who accept young Earth creationism as fact, and who actively deny evolution a la Henry Morris' "The Genesis Flood." They were learning from biology textbooks that teach them that the geological column is a lie, that Darwin was a satanist (not making this up, I read the books myself), and includes justifications for the story of Noah's Ark, and diversity of life in the years following. They also had parties where they all got together and watched Kent Hovind Videos. That kind of toxic belief is utterly terrifying, and horrifically common in Florida. It even pervades the entire political system of the US.

I just want that to stop. Believe in faeries if you wish, but don't force it on your kids, don't reject science in favor of it, and don't use it to write laws. Keep it to yourself.

Quote :
Kinda like... Atheists blowing up when people say that they'll pray for them in a time of need.

Yeah, that is an asshole-y thing to do. But in their defense, they are usually having an emotionally rough time, and the person they're speaking with is doing the equivalent of offering a voodoo dance to a Christian. How do you suppose said Christian would take that? With dignity and respect? I have the patience and composure of a saint, so I can deal with that crap, but I don't expect most people to have the same level of self-restraint that I do.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://furrygtw.forumotion.com
Lunar
Certified Muff-Diving Instructor
avatar

Humor : I Dimmadon't give a shit.
Posts : 2323
Join date : 2011-11-11
Age : 25
Location : Cabinet of Perturbation

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:22 pm

I appreciate the thought when someone says they're gonna pray for me, but I've had my cousins say they're gonna pray that I "come back to the light". I don't wanna come back. I like the dark. Or rather, the much brighter and more certain and secure realm of science. When it comes to religion, I'm like Dr. Brennan: I'm pretty callous about others' beliefs, usually without meaning to be. I like the idea of knowing why things work the way they do and I don't feel like believing in some kind of higher power.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Pliio

avatar

Humor : Satire
Posts : 282
Join date : 2011-10-18
Age : 24
Location : Missourah

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:33 pm

I've always accepted that Religion isn't incompatible with science unless someone makes it out to be. On religion/antitheism both. There's nothing that makes them innately incompatible.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lunar
Certified Muff-Diving Instructor
avatar

Humor : I Dimmadon't give a shit.
Posts : 2323
Join date : 2011-11-11
Age : 25
Location : Cabinet of Perturbation

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:35 pm

Pliio wrote:
I've always accepted that Religion isn't incompatible with science unless someone makes it out to be. On religion/antitheism both. There's nothing that makes them innately incompatible.
It really all depends on personal preference. I don't like associating with anything religious, myself.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Pliio

avatar

Humor : Satire
Posts : 282
Join date : 2011-10-18
Age : 24
Location : Missourah

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:37 pm

lunar_helix wrote:
Pliio wrote:
I've always accepted that Religion isn't incompatible with science unless someone makes it out to be. On religion/antitheism both. There's nothing that makes them innately incompatible.
It really all depends on personal preference. I don't like associating with anything religious, myself.
Likewise, I just don't like to deal with zealots. Whether "My religion is right" all the time or "all of religion is wrong." I simply cannot stand that high level of ignorant, closed-minded thinking.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lunar
Certified Muff-Diving Instructor
avatar

Humor : I Dimmadon't give a shit.
Posts : 2323
Join date : 2011-11-11
Age : 25
Location : Cabinet of Perturbation

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:39 pm

People can believe whatever they want, I really don't care. I just don't believe any of it's true and that's my own thoughts, my own deal. There's a reason "belief" and "faith" are used a lot in intellectual religious discussions, not "truth".
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Brace

avatar

Humor : Lying through truthtelling
Posts : 637
Join date : 2011-12-03
Age : 29
Location : Denver

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:40 pm

Unyielding adherence to moderation is itself a dogma
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Riv
Literally the fucking worst
avatar

Posts : 7308
Join date : 2011-10-17
Age : 27

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:50 pm

Here's a semi-recent example of unhealthy religion in politics;

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/05/19/1745988/43-million-tax-break-approved.html

Kentucky approved a $43-million tax cut for a theme park featuring Noah's Ark. In that same year, the tax code cut $50-million from education. They also intend to spend 10-mill improving the roads that go to the Ark Park site.

Quote :
I've always accepted that Religion isn't incompatible with science unless someone makes it out to be. On religion/antitheism both. There's nothing that makes them innately incompatible.

Oh, but they fundamentally are incompatible. Religion provides answers which cannot be questioned and stifles curiosity by providing a single cop-out answer for everything. Science provides questions which must be answered, partial answers which raise more questions, and encourages curiosity and critical thinking. Sure, one can ignore all matters of a religion that disagree with science, and I am okay with people who do so, but one must ask themselves, "what is the point?" How much of your religion can you actively ignore and deny before you have become, say, an agnostic Christian, or a Muslim Atheist? And what's the objective difference between them and any other irreligious person?

And think of the greatest physicists of the 20th century; Einstein, Feynman, Schrödinger, Tyson, Hawking... and many others were irreligious, one way or another.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://furrygtw.forumotion.com
Lunar
Certified Muff-Diving Instructor
avatar

Humor : I Dimmadon't give a shit.
Posts : 2323
Join date : 2011-11-11
Age : 25
Location : Cabinet of Perturbation

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:52 pm

GET IT OUT OF MY STATE. KILL IT, KILL IT WITH FIRE.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
blackfuredfox
Local Randy Travis
avatar

Humor : D is for lysdexia
Posts : 2524
Join date : 2011-10-19
Age : 23
Location : La Mer

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:53 pm

This is why im agnostic, its pretty much admitting that I don't know what the fuck is after death. For all I know, god is some pink dragon that shits ice cream and lives in Narnia, or drives a harley, fuck if I know.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Pliio

avatar

Humor : Satire
Posts : 282
Join date : 2011-10-18
Age : 24
Location : Missourah

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:59 pm

Riv wrote:
Here's a semi-recent example of unhealthy religion in politics;

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/05/19/1745988/43-million-tax-break-approved.html

Kentucky approved a $43-million tax cut for a theme park featuring Noah's Ark. In that same year, the tax code cut $50-million from education. They also intend to spend 10-mill improving the roads that go to the Ark Park site.

Quote :
I've always accepted that Religion isn't incompatible with science unless someone makes it out to be. On religion/antitheism both. There's nothing that makes them innately incompatible.

Oh, but they fundamentally are incompatible. Religion provides answers which cannot be questioned and stifles curiosity by providing a single cop-out answer for everything. Science provides questions which must be answered, partial answers which raise more questions, and encourages curiosity and critical thinking. Sure, one can ignore all matters of a religion that disagree with science, and I am okay with people who do so, but one must ask themselves, "what is the point?" How much of your religion can you actively ignore and deny before you have become, say, an agnostic Christian, or a Muslim Atheist? And what's the objective difference between them and any other irreligious person?

And think of the greatest physicists of the 20th century; Einstein, Feynman, Schrödinger, Tyson, Hawking... and many others were irreligious, one way or another.
Meh. I don't care anymore to argue.
I just refuse to believe that the death of religiosity is the best option. There has to be a better way.
Something better than keeping religious people out of science in a discriminatory policy. I can't let science go back to the ivory tower ways it held up in and caused the dark ages by falling from.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Brace

avatar

Humor : Lying through truthtelling
Posts : 637
Join date : 2011-12-03
Age : 29
Location : Denver

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:05 pm

There wasn't anything like science in the dark ages. There weren't even really books, except for Aristotle and Plato, because they said things which the church could spin to sound like it supported Christianity and the theocratic regime (IE: Look, a Pagan arriving at the truth of God's existence through reason! A treatise on why the government that governs most is best!)

Anyway, dogma is bad for a healthy (and I guess democratic) society, but science tends to require non-dogmatic attitudes only among specialists, which means debate in circles isolated from the public sphere. So Popperian Falsificationism is quite wellgood, but life will go on fine if even if it's violently rejected by the general populace, as long as there are a few smart people who accept most of its premises and can communicate with each other.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lunar
Certified Muff-Diving Instructor
avatar

Humor : I Dimmadon't give a shit.
Posts : 2323
Join date : 2011-11-11
Age : 25
Location : Cabinet of Perturbation

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:10 pm

I don't have a beef with religion itself. I wouldn't hate a God if there were one. It's his fan club I can't stand. I hate being told that because I'm a lesbian and an atheist, that I'm such a terrible person and I'm going to hell. Yeah. Um... sure. And then they go making everyone else suffer - no tax money means no welfare for people who actually need it or making kids less stupid.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Daisy The Bunny

avatar

Humor : Decompression sickness
Posts : 1701
Join date : 2011-10-19
Age : 23
Location : Lancashire, England

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:47 pm

I think it would be a shallow and empty life to bow down to a deity and I don't know why anyone would do it.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Riv
Literally the fucking worst
avatar

Posts : 7308
Join date : 2011-10-17
Age : 27

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:49 pm

Pliio wrote:

Meh. I don't care anymore to argue.
I just refuse to believe that the death of religiosity is the best option. There has to be a better way.
Something better than keeping religious people out of science in a discriminatory policy. I can't let science go back to the ivory tower ways it held up in and caused the dark ages by falling from.

There is no discriminatory policy, there have been religious people in science throughout history, and even still today. One of the guys who was able to prove the double-helix structure of DNA with x-ray crystallography was a "theistic evolutionist." The only people who need to stay out of science are those who actively deny evidence in favor of their holy book, and those people never get a degree in any scientific field anyway.

The dark ages were not anything to do with science, they were the result of a population explosion and the persistent authoritarian medical instruction introduced by the ancient greek philosophers. Doctors back then believed in the four humors due to an environment which was devoid of science. Anyone who challenged the dogma of the day was made a heretic by the medical community, and the religious beliefs of catholicism prevented people from dissecting human corpses.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://furrygtw.forumotion.com
Wolf-Bone

avatar

Posts : 3290
Join date : 2011-10-20
Age : 34

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:43 pm

Another thing I need to point out is historians don't call it "the dark ages" anymore, and haven't for a pretty long time. And the only reason it was really called that was because most of what went on during that period is simply lost to time. But what hasn't been lost indicates that, if there was a strong theocratic stifling of science, it was only in the very earliest days of the era and greatly loosened as the ages progressed.

What I suspect is that this notion of unwashed, potato-sack wearing, illiterate, flat-earth superstitious rabble isn't without truth, but it was only the very lowest of the lower classes. And the reason this notion is pounded into our heads in our "education" is because this is essentially how our own modern "lords" see us. They think this is who we are, who we will best be able to relate to, and so the complexities of Feudal politics, chivalry, alchemy/science of those times are spoon-fed to us much the same way they would've been to the rabble back then, in bite-sized soundbites and factoids that are simplified and romanticized (sensationalized) so our intellectually and emotionally inferior little brains can handle them.

Luckily, I had a few teachers growing up who were all too aware of this attitude and utterly rejected it.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Riv
Literally the fucking worst
avatar

Posts : 7308
Join date : 2011-10-17
Age : 27

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:03 pm

Wolf-Bone wrote:
Another thing I need to point out is historians don't call it "the dark ages" anymore, and haven't for a pretty long time. And the only reason it was really called that was because most of what went on during that period is simply lost to time. But what hasn't been lost indicates that, if there was a strong theocratic stifling of science, it was only in the very earliest days of the era and greatly loosened as the ages progressed.

What I suspect is that this notion of unwashed, potato-sack wearing, illiterate, flat-earth superstitious rabble isn't without truth, but it was only the very lowest of the lower classes. And the reason this notion is pounded into our heads in our "education" is because this is essentially how our own modern "lords" see us. They think this is who we are, who we will best be able to relate to, and so the complexities of Feudal politics, chivalry, alchemy/science of those times are spoon-fed to us much the same way they would've been to the rabble back then, in bite-sized soundbites and factoids that are simplified and romanticized (sensationalized) so our intellectually and emotionally inferior little brains can handle them.

Luckily, I had a few teachers growing up who were all too aware of this attitude and utterly rejected it.

Yeah, I don't know where I stand on that. On the one hand, it seems like everyone is saying that the traditional portrayal is a bunch of crap. On the other hand, I don't see any progress during that time. For example, in medicine, first there was Galen. A Greek physician. Then nothing changed for hundreds of years. Then in the 12th century, there was Avicenna. And then nothing changed for hundreds of years, at which point somebody realized that doctors should wash their hands between autopsies and child birthing, and then finally germ theory.

Then again, maybe I'm overestimating the progress that Greek and Roman societies made. I mean, Aristotle had a recipe for making mice.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://furrygtw.forumotion.com
Wolf-Bone

avatar

Posts : 3290
Join date : 2011-10-20
Age : 34

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:47 pm

Riv wrote:
Yeah, I don't know where I stand on that. On the one hand, it seems like everyone is saying that the traditional portrayal is a bunch of crap. On the other hand, I don't see any progress during that time. For example, in medicine, first there was Galen. A Greek physician. Then nothing changed for hundreds of years. Then in the 12th century, there was Avicenna. And then nothing changed for hundreds of years, at which point somebody realized that doctors should wash their hands between autopsies and child birthing, and then finally germ theory.

Then again, maybe I'm overestimating the progress that Greek and Roman societies made. I mean, Aristotle had a recipe for making mice.

The collapse of Rome left a void that took a long time to fill, but mainly what I was criticizing was this perception of some inherently less civilized, near-subhuman mob that I think exists more to project what certain elites think of us than as a sincere idea of what the period was like. For example, yes, some people probably did think the earth was flat, but certainly not in academia. The church was certainly more powerful than it is now, but it wasn't this Orwellian monolith, and even a King's "Divine Right" was only as strong as the lands he held.

As for the Greeks and Romans, I don't care what "progress" they made before they collapsed and were wiped out. They raped, pillaged, enslaved and crucified our ancestors by the millions. Many of us died by their hand, but their entire world died by ours. Call it poetic justice. The way I see it, the dark ages were a good thing, because it gave us the opportunity we needed to be rid of them, rediscover certain knowledge independent of them and the stench of their kind.

Hitler invented the Volkswagon. Big fucking whoop. He was still a genocidal maniac who we owe absolutely nothing in terms of recognition or gratitude. Same with those swarthy, olive oil soaked sodomites.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Taz

avatar

Humor : Suggestive, Dry, Sardonic
Posts : 1349
Join date : 2011-10-30
Age : 23
Location : The Vast Expanse of Northern Canada

PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:57 pm

Hey, I like Hitler, he had a dream.
A somewhat misguided dream, but still, he was stylish.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: this is very tempting   

Back to top Go down
 
this is very tempting
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 2 of 3Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Yamadori juniper- far too tempting to rockclimbing bonsai enthusiasts!!!

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
General Time-Wasters :: Main Category :: General Discussion-
Jump to: